Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

They're out of sync with the PM cycle - usually caused by emotion.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

http://www.libertydollar.org/graphic...liberty_fb.jpg


isn't any "coin" or bill that contains a monitary value and not issued by the US mint considered counterfit or fraudulent? i'm just wondering about that. couldn't these guys get in real trouble by the gov?

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I would like to get some, how much a piece and where can I get them?

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Hey!, don't be knocking the liberty dollars. When all of your PMs went down yesterday, my liberty dollars still say $1000 each on them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just goes to show what you guys know.:rofl:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

The Liberty Dollar has been discussed over and over on this forum and the Free State Project forum and the only universal conclusion is that It's a lot better and more honest than the Federal Reserve system, yet holds no advantages over bullion other than it's educational and activism value.

I don't buy them. I don't knock them either, might as well save that energy for the more deserving Federal Reserve.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Hmmm, so for $20 USD, I can get 1 troy ounce silver?

Oh wait, it is "inflation proof". Goodie. Must be that special sort of silver that doesn't fluctuate in relation to the dollar. Too bad I only have the non-inflation-proof silver that lost purchasing power in the last week.

According to wikipedia "Since the revaluation of the Liberty Dollar on Thanksgiving Day, 2005, the old silver notes and $10 Silver Liberty are obsolete. There is a reminting fee to melt down old one-ounce $10 Silver Liberties and remint them into $20 Silver Liberties, but the paper certificates can be exchanged at no charge.".

Methinks it sounds like a money-making scam. But I'm cynical, YMMV.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I buy them, they periodically show up amongst the generic rounds at standard bullion prices. I like the half ouncers as a convenient silver fractional.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Then the Feds would have to come up with a definition of the "dollar"...........

Oh, wait....they already did !! The Coinage Act of 1792, as subsequently ammended, but not repealed, says a "DOLLAR" is 371.25 grains of fine silver.

So the same US Mint that makes those Sack-a-manure dollar coins, and the Treasury Dept that prints the so called "Dollar" bill for the Fed is in violation of the Coinage Act, since neither can be redeemed for 371.25 grains of fine silver.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Why can't I just send him a few Christmas rounds and he sends me the $20 FRN per oz minus the "reminting fee"?

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Yeah "Bernard von NotHaus" my butt "Bernard von NutHaus" I think....what a scam. :haha::haha:

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Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

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Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Reality:
Reality is that the current FRN price of a Dollar is $10.14
Attachment 15716
Reality is that The Great Ag wants $20 for his Dollar:
Subtracting The Great Ag's 17.5% vig of $3.50 we are still short $6.36 from the total $20 face value:


$10.14 silver content
$03.50 The Great Ag's vig
$06.36 unexplained missing value
$20.00 face value

Simple Reality Test Question:

We now understand why they want to exchange $10.14 in Silver for $20 in FRNs. Why would anyone exchange $20 in FRNs for a Liberty Dollar [generic silver round] that contains only $10.14 in Silver???
:wavey:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

$6.36 unexplained missing value?

Just like any product you cannot expect to pay for that product for the cost of the raw materials. Bread costs over $2. Do you think there are over $2 worth of raw material in that bread? When you pay $20,000 for a car, do you think there are $20k worth of metals, plastics and rubber in it?

Ofcourse not. The same principle appies to money creation. Even our treasury works the same. Do you think there is .25 cents worth of nickel and copper in a quarter? Do you think there is $20 worth of material in a $20 FRN? Heck no, it costs around .03 cents to make a $20 FRN.

Value = $20.00 FRN
Cost = .03
Difference 19.97

So where is the missing $19.97 worth of value?

Let's compare the difference between a $20FRN and a $20 Liberty silver certificate

$20 FRN
1. backed by debt
2 lose $19.97 to the consumer
3. not redeemable for anything ]
4. controlled by the fed ]

$20 silver Liberty
1. Backed by silver
2. lost $6.36 to the consumer
3. redeemable for 1 oz silver
4. controlled by the people

Which currency is a better value?

Book, I would not buy silver Liberties for investment purposes. In that sense, you are absolutely correct. However, which currency would I want to use for my everyday transactions? The Liberty Dollar wins hands down.

The Great Ag

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Metal is money. It's just that some metals are better money than others, and always better than paper. The segniorage of Liberty Dollars is just an needless expense, unless as was mentioned it is an educational effort.

http://www.investment.definitioncent...iss/segniorage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

snippet from messianicdruid's excellent linky:
Reality Summary:

$10.14 actual silver content of this generic silver round
$03.50 The Great Ag's seigniorage
$06.36 Liberty Inc's seigniorage
$20.00 face value of this generic 1-oz silver round


:listen: psst $9.86 total seigniorage going to The Great Ag and Liberty Inc.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I would not buy the Liberty dollar because:

1) the high mark up.
2) Most cashiers do not recognize a Susan B. Anthony dollar, let alone a Liberty dollar that I barely recognize. Therefore, I think it would be hard to trade with for goods.
3) The creator is out to make money as he should be, just shouldn't be my money.

On the other hand, I like the rebellious concept & I'm not fully aware of how it works with inflation. For example, say I buy a $20 Liberty dollar. I now have the equivalent $20 worth of FRN's to spend. Say, then, the FRN tanks to 50% of its previous value. A $10 item at the store goes to $20. I still have my $20 Liberty dollar. I used to be able to buy 2 of the $10 items, now I can only buy one of the $10 items. How has the Liberty dollar fought inflation? I'm guessing that it assumes that if the $10 item doubles, so will the price of silver. So, I then can send in my now obsolete dollars to get a $50 Liberty dollar? For a small fee? What kind of fee. What turned my $20 into $50. And why not just buy bullion and watch it double instead of all the hassle. Just go to your local dealer and cash it in for a small fee.

The markup is just too high. It sounds like a pyramid scheme. You get a 17.5% discount & I'm guessing that the guy you get it from gets a 17.5% discount and so on and so on, just like New Image dietary supplement. The end of the line guy like me gets to buy a $10 ounce of silver for $20 while you guys get rich. The only person that accepts it is the coin dealer who will give me $10 for it, *maybe*.

I heard a man on the radio talking about Liberty dollars a few months back. He claimed his town in Arkansas was the Liberty dollar capital of the USA, meaning the most coins were in circulation and the most stores accepted them per capita. He went on to say he used to buy goods from Wal-Mart, but they eventually refused to take them. I do a lot of shopping at Wal-Mart. Why would it behoove me to pay $20 for a $10 piece of silver, just to go buy $10 worth of goods with it at Wal-Mart (if they even accepted them)? I could just keep my cash and buy $20 worth of goods. Throw in hyperinflation and I still have my bullion that I can then sell for double its worth or more.

I don't fully see the benefits. Perhaps some more education will convince me.

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What a scam. If i have "investment" rounds I can excange them at a lesser premium for whatever currency I want

IF Liberty Dollars BOTH

Bought FROM LibertyDollar.com

and

Sold TO LibertyDollar.com

were priced at the same number of FRNs

then there would be no one getting screwed.

Other than that is it a SCAM

And I do not really care about your overhead.

You are either a currency or a novelty item

and only tourists buy novelty items

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Nope...you nailed it Fiat Money!
:beer: <!-- / message -->

Shiny silver, beautiful coins
 

I'd rather purchase Silver Eagles instead, because I get more metal and still very nice coins for the same amount of paper money. But hey, I have done that already.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

What is the limit to amount of Liberty Dollars one can buy? Can I realistically walk into VanNotHaus' office and ask for 50 million Liberty Dollars?

If I were to come across a $10 Liberty Dollar scrip, can I redeem that for a one ounce Liberty Dollar?

If so, what is to stop a good counterfeiter from liquidating Mr. VonNothaus of his silver holdings?

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Yes the mark up sucks, Yes it is cheaper to buy at your dealer, Yes it is probably a network marketing company, But I think alot of you are missing the point. I do not own any Liberty dollars, But I have decided to buy some just to support the Idea ( however silly it might sound to some) of the peoples money. I really think all Who dissagree with the Federal Reserve should buy 5 or 10 liberty dollars just to hold and participate in the program. I wish they were cheaper too. I also wish we were not slaves to the money changers. Think about it most people could put 5 to 10 liberty dollars in your stash without busting the budget in a couple months time and could at least raise more awareness to things. You never know we might even get enough attention to get a private investor to launch a similar program as a revolution without all the added poop that comes with the big mark up.

2 cents.

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Psst, Book works for the gov't. Don't trust him :haha:

Just kidding, Book. But seriously, what is wrong with a private corporation and a private citizen, making a small profit. When I spend them that is a savings to me, and if people buy them from me, I pass the savings to them. Minimally they will save 5%, maybe more it depends on my price. So $19 gets you $20. The fed doesn't do that.

Matter of fact their seigiorage is 98%. That is huge! And wrong. On top of that we owe the fed interest. The fed pays .03 for a $20 FRN and sells it to banks at face value, and we get them for the same.

Prior to 1965, and 1933 silver and gold were money, and no one complained about that they paid more for their money than spot.

As I said, in terms of an investment, Liberty dollars are not the way to go. This is a currency, and many vendors do take it. I do not have much of a problem spending them. Matter of fact, a lot of people buy them from me outright.

The Great Ag

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Okay, guys and girls,,I'm brand new here and this is my first post ever and I know it's in the wrong place,,it's just that I don't know how to put it in the right place. I'm an absolute dummy on a computer.
BUT! I have a question.
I'm a jeweler in Tn and have been for 32 years. Also a diamond seller/setter, goldsmith. I was around when the gold/silver frenzy hit in '79/'80 and made a lot of $$$. I'm pretty loaded right now with physical gold/silver and waiting for it to go back up. Did I say,,I have a question,, Yeah, I did.
Question: I have a customer wanting to sell me a considerable amount of Tantalum. She has a few pounds of it and I just don't have a market for it. Who's a buyer for this stuff? What's it worth?
Anybody got an answer for me?
Thanks,
Dwight in Tn.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Ask as many questions as you have. I will answer them to the best of my ability.

The Great Ag

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The Great Ag

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As hoarder said, this topic has been broached numerous times on GIM. I'll quote myself from this thread (again!):

I know this is too complicated for you, Book, as all is black or white in your world. You really ought to just put me on ignore.

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1 oz of silver is worth 1 oz of silver.

I have nothing against the liberty dollars. Department stores print money in the form of gift certificates. Casinos create money when they create chips. A percentage of the money they create is profit.

These liberty dollar guys are simply trying to make the printing of money their whole business, rather than as a profitable side of a much larger business. It's interesting, and I respect the fact that they seem to be pulling it off. It's one thing to print money to satisfy a demand that already exists (people want to buy products at the department store, or play roulette in vegas), but more challenging to actually create the demand.

I wouldn't buy into it, but for anyone who does... at least you're getting some silver.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

This whole thing just doesn't sit right with me. I couldn't see anyone accepting these, and if they did they would probably lose thier job once their employer brings their cash to the bank only to find the bank wont accept them. These aren't real dollars and people won't percieve them as real dollars, they will percieve them as rounds with a high mark up that are stamped "dollars". I mean the guy who makes these could just take his bullion, stamp these, then go around spending it for six dollars more then its worth. If actually works consitently, then I say we all get into the bussines. I'm gonna start right away, but mine will be way better. I will stamp them as $100 each and will then go on a shopping spree with them. I don't care if you guys want to buy any of them off me. I don't need your money, I 'll just spend my $100 coins! :banana:

I will instantly make 10x on my money risk free, and feel great that I'm using honest money. :rolleyes:

Now am I missing something here or is this how it works?

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Let's take note of a simple fact here: One-ounce generic silver rounds are not "legal tender" and they ALL are worth the same...one-ounce of silver.

The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are "worth" more than any other generic silver round is absurd. The notion that "Liberty Dollars" are a way of sticking it to The Man or The Government or The Banksters can be said about any generic silver round. Wrap the Flag around a generic silver round and you still have just a generic silver round.

Paying more for one one-ounce of silver over any other one-ounce of silver is illogical. Saying that buying a certain generic silver round is more "Patriotic" than buying any other generic silver round is nonsense.

Comments addressing this topic of Liberty Dollars is most welcome.
:yippee:
You really should just stay out of my thread.
:D

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Thank you for taking the time to help us understand this...it is very interesting to me. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I still don't understand what happens if silver hits 25$/oz. and up. what does trade up to 50.00$ mean?

Also, if 20 million LD's are in circulation, than 20 million $'s (FRN's) have been spent on these already? What happen if I buy 1000$ LD's, does someone go and buy silver to back those, or is there 20 million sitting in a vault somewhere already backing the existing currency? Hope my questions make sense.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Okay, according to http://www.onlygold.com/TutorialPage...ion_tables.htm

to convert grains to troy ounces one must multiply the number of grains by .0021

Therefore a Constitutional "dollar" of 371.25 grains is : 371.25 * .0021 = .779625

Soooo, using the spot price used above, wouldn't a Constitutional "dollar" really be only worth $10.14 * .779625 = $7.905 ???

Am I missing something??:wavey:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I like Hugo Salinas's method of introducing silver back as a viable currency...perhaps this has been posted before, but it seems relevant to the current discussion.... I believe he mentioned elsewhere a seignorage of 10% as well...will try to find the link for that too...

http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/plata/comHSP45a.htm

Mexico�s Central Bank, the Banco de Mexico, has ample reserves of some $50 billion U.S. dollars. Indeed, President Vicente Fox of Mexico declared some months ago, that �we really don�t know what to do with them, they are so large.� Using a small part of these reserves, the Banco de Mexico could purchase silver for coining �Libertad� pure silver ounces.<o:p> </o:p>

These coins could be placed into circulation as legal tender money, with a floating value which would be quoted daily by the Banco de Mexico. The floating value would be determined by taking the international price of silver, presently quoted in dollars, multiplying this price by the exchange rate of the Mexican peso for dollars, and adding on a small percentage of seignorage for the Banco de Mexico. This would be the legal tender value for the one ounce, no nominal (engraved) value, pure silver �Libertad� coin.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
Banco de Mexico could put these into circulation, by exactly the same means which it presently uses to put bills and coins into circulation. (In 2002, the Banco de Mexico added $39 billion pesos � some $3.7 billion dollars � to the Mexican bills and coins in circulation) Thus, the silver �Libertad� ounce would enter circulation along with other bills and coins, through the banking system.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
The reader may object: �But these higher quality coins would never circulate! They would be hoarded.� The reply: Indeed, they would be hoarded. But, let us reflect that there are two types of circulation, active and passive. The active circulation is of those bills and coins we are willing to spend first; the passive circulation is of coins such as the �Libertad�, which we will only spend as a last resort. The silver coins, with full and clearly determined legal tender value, will be circulating passively, as savings, but fully useable by the holder, at any time. This passive circulation is called �hoarding�, but it is still circulating, legal tender money, held in reserve for emergency use.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
The value of the �Libertad� coin would be a floating value, and only a coin like the �Libertad� can have a floating value, because it has no nominal value stamped on it. A stamped or engraved value on a silver or gold coin, is an insuperable obstacle to circulation, active or passive, because the actually floating value of silver and gold makes any silver or gold coin with a stamped value obsolete as money, the moment it is coined. Such a coin will usually be issued with a �face value� or nominal value far in excess of its actual intrinsic worth. It offers very little protection from devaluation, to the holder, because of this circumstance. And the final destination of such coinage, is the smelter, to which it is doomed whenever the intrinsic value of the silver or gold, rises above the nominal or face value stamped upon it and expressed in a number of units of paper money.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
A silver coin can only endure indefinitely in circulation, if it has no nominal value. And the �Libertad� is such a coin. <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
It would acquire full legal tender status, by means of a daily quote for such value, by the Banco de Mexico. It would thus be money, along with the paper bills and base metal coins presently in circulation.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
If the price of silver rises sufficiently, the floating value of the coin will increase. Two buffers avoid a constant modification of the floating legal tender value: the first buffer, is the seignorage of the Banco de Mexico, who can accept some fluctuation in the cost of the silver being coined; the second buffer, arises from the fact that the legal tender value is to be expressed in round figures ending in zero or in five. That is, $75 pesos, or $80 pesos, or $90 pesos, etc. <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
If the exchange value of the peso declines, the floating value of the coin will increase. The same buffers avoid a daily modification of the legal tender value.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
What if the price of silver declines, or if the peso appreciates against the dollar, as it has in fact been doing? In this case, our proposal is that a floating legal tender value, once established by the Banco de Mexico, shall not be reduced.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
It is absolutely necessary that a coin to be used as money � whether actively or passively, whether in trade or as hoarded savings � shall not be reduced in its legal tender value. A $100 pesos paper money bill cannot be turned into a $90 peso bill. And a silver coin, with a quoted value, cannot be subjected to a reduction in its legal tender value, without destroying confidence in that coin as money. A floating quoted legal tender value for the coin, must under no circumstances be reduced.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
A stable quoted value of the silver coin, if the price of silver declines, only means that the Banco de Mexico is obtaining a higher seignorage or profit in minting this coin.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
If the exchange value of the peso were to rise considerably, then the same amount of pesos would buy more dollars. The purchase of dollars would certainly not arise from the exchange of �Libertad� coins, which would purchase more dollars if the holder wished to purchase them with these coins. The purchaser of dollars will choose to use his paper money to buy dollars, and only use �Libertad� coins to purchase dollars as a last resort, because of the higher quality of the silver money. Lesser quality money is used for trade, higher quality money is kept back as savings.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
The Banco de Mexico would never see a �flight from silver� into either the paper pesos it issues, or dollars in its reserves.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
The three stipulations which are the key to introducing silver into circulation in Mexico � or anywhere else, for that matter � are:<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>

• No nominal value.<o:p> </o:p>
• A floating legal tender value<o:p> </o:p>
• No reduction in a legal tender value, once established.<o:p> </o:p>

The �Libertad� coin would circulate � actively in trade or passively as savings � with no problem at all, along with the paper money Mexico currently uses, and which Mexico will most probably continue to use for many years to come.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
The advantages and incentive to savings provided by a silver coin, are obvious. Holding �Libertad� coins under this proposal, would become true investment in savings, and not speculation regarding future rises in price, as at present, since the silver money would be useable along with paper, for trade, at any moment the holder desired to use it thus. No longer would it be necessary to find a buyer for his silver coins, as at present. The �Libertad� becomes money.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
The quantity of silver money that could be put into circulation in Mexico in this way, is practically unlimited. <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
The great importance of accepting this proposal, is best expressed in the words of Nobel prize winner, Milton Friedman:<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
��it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored.� � Milton Friedman, Professor (Emeritus) of Economics at the University of Chicago and Hoover Institution Senior Research Fellow, Stanford University, and Nobel Laureate. (Our emphasis).<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
Another Nobel Laureate, Robert Mundell, has stated in his essay, �Uses and Abuses of Gresham�s Law in History�, that any amount of high quality money circulating along with paper money, adds a measure, limited though it may be, to the total quality of the circulating medium. Thus the silver �Libertad�, introduced into the Mexican monetary system, will add to the quality of that monetary system, and the greater the relative quantity of that quality money, the greater the quality of the monetary system as a whole.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
In the present circumstances of monetary uncertainty throughout the world, and in view of the proximity and the weight of the U.S. dollar upon the Mexican economy, it is prudent to search for an alternative which will open the way to an independent monetary system of quality, which can sustain itself on its own, among the monetary systems of the rest of the world.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
Silver, a traditionally Mexican money, is the clearest avenue open to Mexico.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
Though not the central objective of monetizing silver, undoubtedly the coinage of large amounts of �Libertad� coins, which would be eagerly accepted by all Mexicans, would impact upon the price of silver, and be of great benefit to Mexican mining, which is providing large amounts of silver to the world markets, at ridiculously low prices, to the detriment of Mexican mining and the Mexican economy, which is hungry for a mass means of savings in a medium which will guarantee the conservation of value through the years.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
What if this issuance of �Libertad� coins were carried to an extreme? We need not worry about such hypothetical doubts; the quantity to be issued is still subject to decision by the Banco de Mexico. It is doubtful they will be willing to issue large quantities of this coin. But, following the thinking of Milton Friedman, that is not really important: what is vitally important is that under this proposal an alternative is established and another tool for monetary policy will be in place and ready to be applied when a crisis erupts.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
www.plata.com.mx

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

here is where it talks about the 10 percent... http://goldismoney.info/forums/archi...p/t-19387.html

Maple Leaf Steve
03-18-2005, 03:42 AM

Mexico Mulls Silver Lining Against Currency Crash


March 13, 2005
By Pav Jordan
Reuters

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - An influential Mexican businessman wants to reintroduce silver coins as legal currency -- as in Mexico's 16th century heyday -- and, far-fetched as it may sound, the idea is winning support.

The Senate has already passed the initiative, and the lower house is expected to vote soon on the bill, which has struck a nerve in a country where decades of financial crisis have fomented a deep distrust of paper currency.

The central bank opposes the plan as anachronistic.

Hugo Salinas Price, founder of the specialty retailer Elektra, says silver could be the shield to protect Mexicans' savings from another currency collapse.

"The idea was born from the need to protect the currency," said Price, whose son, Ricardo Salinas, is chief executive of Mexico's No. 2 broadcaster, TV Azteca.

Mexico's peso is stable now, and has actually strengthened of late, but fear of currency collapse is etched deep in the Mexican psyche after previous financial crises.

Mexico was a top supplier of silver coins during the colonial era, when they were significant components of the Spanish and British treasuries. The minting of coins in the New World began in 1535 in Mexico City.


NO NOMINAL VALUE

According to Price and advocate lawmakers interviewed by Reuters, the new coins would be valued according to the price of silver as a commodity, with the central bank, Banco de Mexico, managing coinage and charging a 10 percent seigniorage.

The 1-ounce silver coin, called the Libertad (Liberty), would have no nominal value engraved upon it, and would circulate alongside the conventional peso currency. Its worth would be stated daily in a central bank quote.

Price said the Libertad would be protected from losing value because losses on commodity markets would be compensated for by central bank valuations.

Representatives of the central bank could not be reached to comment, but it has rejected the idea in arguments to legislators, citing concerns ranging from counterfeiting to minting costs.

Independent economists also argue against monetizing silver, saying it has no place in a modern world of interconnected and open economies.

Rafael Urquia, an analyst with Banamex Accival brokerage in Mexico City, said the plan would limit the flexibility of monetary policy.

"I am inclined to think that this will not pass (Congress)," Urquia said in a recent interview. "I would like to think that the legislators sitting on economic committees have some common sense."


PAST CRISES REMEMBERED

Opponents also cite the costs of adapting the currency system to incorporate silver coins, and list the subsequent transaction costs and even minting costs as other concerns.

"This idea of a hybrid currency seeks the best of both worlds -- and I think that would be difficult," Urquia said.

Still, the 1994-95 financial meltdown known as the "Tequila crisis" is just the most recent example of why some Mexicans are eager for an alternative safe haven for their money.

Despite recent advances, Mexico still has one of Latin America's lowest rates of savings and bank credit.

Most past crises have coincided with presidential elections, and the tight, three-way race for the 2006 vote has generated worries that the peso could be in for a steep decline.

Still, Mexico produced some 3 million ounces of silver in 2004 and state governors and legislators say the plan could give a boost to the economies of states producing silver.

"We see this as a viable initiative," said Fernando Guzman, a federal deputy with the governing National Action Party. "It would bring a new vitality to the state economies."

Proponents of silver money cite Gresham's law -- named after the financial agent of England's Queen Elizabeth I, Sir Thomas Gresham (1519-1579) -- to support arguments that people tend to save currencies with intrinsic values when they are traded alongside fiduciary monies.

"I can tell you one thing for sure, I don't always stop to pick up a peso if I drop it," said Violeta de la Torre, an office administrator. "But I certainly wouldn't leave a silver ounce lying in the street."

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7885125

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Before this thread I had never heard of "seigniorage" before. Very relevant steel g and messianicdruid. The Great Ag is being a good sport here.
:beer:

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Gosh Ag, if we could split it maybe I can delete this whole thread!
:listen:
Seriously, I think that The Great Ag is being a real sport in this thread. The defense/promotion of the Liberty Dollar ain't easy. Furthermore, this whole discussion about what currency really is is facinating. I'm learning a lot here.
:smile:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

The Great Ag

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

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I would say avoid the Tantalum. I am not sure of the current market price but it was only about $34 a pound in 1998. I don't even know how you could certify that it truly is tantalum.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Book, you have to remember that the Liberty dollar is a currency and not a PM. From that standpoint paying more for a silver backed currency does make sense.

As I said earlier, a business owner does not want the hassles involved trying to figure out the value of 1oz of silver or gold. What if the you and the store owner do not agree, what then. Everything breaks down.

Suppose the Liberty dollar had a face value of $13. Would you use it then? How much time before silver is worth more than the face value. You cannot immediately remint the $13 face value to say $15. It would take time to send it off to NORFED to be converted. You have to choose a denomination that is high enough above the spot price of silver to be usable stable, and simple to use.

The question really comes down to, if you do not want to use FRNs, what system would you use. Simply saying I would use my generic rounds is not good enough, as that is simple barter, and barter is clumsy at best. We need a currency that is not backed by debt and is stable and simple to use.



The Great Ag

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Attachment 15795

This real American Silver Eagle from the US Mint costs a lot less than your generic silver round. Why pay you more [$20] when it could be used as currency like you have described???
:yippee:

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Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

One ounce of silver is one ounce of silver. Your generic one-ounce silver round is suddenly worth more than one ounce of silver because you stamp a $20 face value?

Pull the other one Ag. You might as well stamp $200 on your one-ounce generic silver round. Then it will "buy" ten times as much.
:rolleyes:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Relative or Absolute
 

The Liberty Dollar does have value as a currency above and beyond it's intrinsic value and thus is priced higher than it's intrinsic value. However it's value as a currency (beyond the existing currency value of ordinary bullion) is extremely limited and not worth the considerable extra expense.

The Liberty Dollar is the currency of activists, it presents a learning curve for those trying to understand "money" and it's laudable in that regard. But the Liberty Dollar is not appealing to investors at all.

Von Nothaus has given Americans food for thought. He has given us an alternative that will never be.

If the public became aware enough of monetary issues to widely use the Liberty Dollar, they would soon be using bullion instead.

Re: Relative or Absolute
 

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

My mortgage company won't accept it. My electric company won't accept it. The telephone company won't accept it. It seems like you have to sell the counterparty on the idea of accepting the Liberty Dollar as equivalent to $20 FRN. Unless there is a sign "Liberty Dollar Accepted Here", I would run the risk of being arrested by the authorities for fraud.

I think I'm better off smelting my own silver into rounds & stamping $20 on them. If I can get good at passing Liberty Dollars off as $20 FRN, I may as well profit from the seignorage.

By the way, is that $100 referral bonus paid in FRNs or in Liberty Dollars?

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A private corporation that creates value earns its profit. A scam doesn't earn profit, it cheats from people. One ounce of silver is an ounce of silver. Your proclimation that your silver coin is equal or higher to some number of FRNs is just as worthless as the promise of the Fed Reserve Bank.

quote: I pass the savings to them.

RossL: you cheat people.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Book and Ag...

what do you think of the Phoenix $ currency system? I am not going to put up a link to them for fear of being called a spammer. It seems similar to the Goldmoney website and not as clumsy as the Liberty Dollar system.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin42.htm


HOKA HEY!
PART 1

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

[i]t matters not one iota what political party is in power or what President holds the reins of office. We are not politicians or public thinkers; we are the rich; we own America; we got it, God knows how, but we intend to keep it if we can by throwing the tremendous weight of our support, our influence, our money, our political connections, our purchased senators, our hungry congressmen, our public-speaking demagogues into the scale against any legislature, any political platform, any presidential campaign that threatens the dignity of our estate.

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• In the 1930s Congress removed gold coin from the monetary system�not "coin[ing] Money" (as the Constitution requires), but uncoining it.
  

  
  
  
• In the 1960s Congress debased America's silver coinage�not honestly "regulating the Value" of "Money," but falsifying it. And,
  

  
  
  
• Today, Congress declares paper "currency" to be "legal tender" for all debts, even though all such "currency" is absolutely irredeemable in gold or silver. See Title 31, United States Code, Sections 5103 and 5118(b and c).

  
  
  

So, should the Establishment ever succeed in disarming common Americans, their hopes for sound money and honest banking would be dashed on the rocks of despair. Based on economic theory, it is a near certainty that, absent extensive reforms, the present regime of fictitious "currency" and "credit" will collapse. Based on America's own political experience, a very strong possibility exists that, absent Militia "organiz[ed], arm[ed], and disciplin[ed]" and "call[ed] forth to execute the Laws" as the Constitution mandates (Article I, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16), a financial dictatorship will take over in response to the ensuing chaos. (Indeed, on a small scale this is exactly what happened from 1932 to 1934, with the implosion of the Federal Reserve System and the installation of Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal, the central policy of which was to "go off the gold standard"�that is, to empower bankers and politicians to expand the supplies of unsound "currency" and "credit" more than ever before). And, based on the adage that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," the likelihood that such a dictatorship, on its own initiative, will ever relinquish power to We the People and return this country to constitutional standards asymptotically approaches zero for as long as the dictatorship persists.

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Gordon Hayes, the owner of Phoenix, made his starting capital from katzglobal.com. KatzGlobal's specialty has been the anonymous hosting of Ponzis which operate in DGCs (Digital Gold Currencies). The Ponzis hosted by Katz and Hayes have collectively stolen many millions of dollars. Hayes was also arrogant enough to actually claim trademark on the phrase "anonymous hosting"; if one does a Google for the phrase, Katz is the first site listed.

Hayes has a history of exaggerating and lying about the size and scope of his business. He used to claim that he owned thousands of servers on several continents; the truth was that Katz was only a webhosting reseller. He also created a fictional person named "Scott Morgan" who claimed to be an attorney, back before he could readily afford to retain such. It has been proven that Scott Morgan is indeed Gordon Hayes. Personally, I don't like liars, especially those who might have access to my money.

Gordon obsessively threatens to sue people, especially for libel. He'll eventually find this thread. (He's the type of guy who Googles himself periodically to see what people are saying about him. This may be excusable, as the guy does generate a lot of bad press.) I expect Gordon will demand that this post be removed, or he'll sue GIM. But Gordon needs to realize that truth is a defense to libel, and everything I've posted thus far is the truth. Do a Google search, and you'll find plenty of other sources echoing all I've said about Hayes.

As for me, I won't let Gordon Hayes profit a single penny of my money. I consider him a criminal. Aside from its questionable owner, however, the Phoenix Dollar is likely legit. I don't believe Hayes would outright steal anyone's money. I see the scheme as Mafia-esque: take the dirty money and cycle it through a legit business; enjoy the clean money as the legit business generates profits. Disclaimer: this paragraph is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

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How about reducing the font in posts # 59 through 61, steel_g? We ain't blind. :D

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:thefinger:

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Dude, what's your problem?

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If you don't like my font preference, you can put me on ignore. Makes it easier to read on my browser. FWIW, I've heard people complain about fonts being too small in the past, but never too large. But like I said before, If you don't like it, read the original article at the hyperlink I provided or just put me on ignore. I promise, it won't hurt my feelings.

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Vieira is a quality guy, and I'm always interested in what he has to say. I have nothing against you, either, steel_g. I'm just "old school" - it's rude to make long posts in huge fonts (or strangely-colored fonts, or all capital letters, etc.) If people have eyesight problems and can't read 12pt fonts, it's a simple matter for them to adjust their monitor settings. I'll admit it - I'm sometimes a Netiquette nanny.

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Your wish is granted!

ignore :top:

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RossL:

If the Liberty Dollar cheats or steals from people, then the fed is even worse.

Let me give you an example. Let's say for the sake of argument, you make $20 per hour at your job. You use your skills, abilities and God given talents (that is your property) and you exchange 1 hour of your skills for a $20 FRN. It cost the fed approximately .03 cents to create that note. You just gave up 1 hour of your time for a piece of paper that cost .03 cents to make, and the fed pocketed $19.97. The fed would gladly do this all day.

It costs them .03 cents to make a $20 FRN and they sell it to you for $20. a $100 FRN costs them .03 cents and they sell it to you for $100, pocketing $99.97!

Here is the kicker, that truly proves they fed is the largest scam foisted upon the people. You just exchanged 1 hour of your time for a .03 cent piece of paper, which is an evidence of debt. The gov't must pay interest on that note to the fed. How does the gov't get the money to the interest? From you and me, ofcourse.

Get this RossL, the fed sold you a .03 cent piece of paper with a $20 face value, and our gov't taxed you to pay the interest on that piece of paper. When you factor in your time plus taxes paid, you actually gave the fed more than $20 in time and money for that .03 cent piece of paper with a $20 face value.

Does that make sense, RossL? If I cheat people, then what does the fed do? At least the Liberty Dollar offers a discount, but even if it did not the exchange rate between the two currencies is never greater than 1:1.

The Great Ag

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Great AG,
I've been catching up after a few days of working... for FRN's(which tomorrow I'll convert to more PM's) As book pointed out, you have been very patient and informative. I believe that is because this is an idea Americans could/should get behind. Although I can't shake the feeling that it is too little too late. (There are literally 9,000,000,000 reasons for me to feel this way)

After reading this thread, another question comes to mind. You said that we the people own the $, not the gov't? Why do they print it? Why do you say this? Because we are the workforce? Is there something in the Constitution about this? Please clarify...

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I'm not the Great Ag, but I'm guessing we own the money, because it is generated by taxing us. They tax our paychecks, etc. to fund projects that are suppose to protect and serve us. Our congressmen and women are suppose to vote to appropriate the funds they have collected to projects that the people need and want. They stopped doing this a long time ago, probably on day two.

So, its more like, it was our money, until it was stolen by the Federal Reserve to pay interest on the money they borrow to police us and the rest of the world, etc.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

If that's the case we should make up a batch of silver rounds with a $500 price on them.

:yippee:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Currently, We the People, do not own our currency. The fed does! They can manipulate the money supply to their content. We have no say in how many dollars are in circulation, we cannot make it - only borrow it and hopefully make a better return than the interest we owe. Remember if we had no debt we would have no money supply.

When America was on the gold standard, We The People controlled the money. Sure the Treasury printed and minted money, but it was not controlled by a few people, as it is today. Americans could take gold to any mint and the mint would coin the gold into money. In other words you could create your own money, interest free with no gov't influence. The gold standard kept our gov't in check, and since we could conrtrol or at least influence the money supply we could control gov't. We let that go without a fight, and here we are today trying to regain what we lost by inaction.

I do have PMs in my little hoard, but I am exchanging FRNs to Liberty Dollars and spending them. They are beautiful silver pieces.

We let the bankers take it without a fight. We were duped, that's for sure, but we did not contest it. Our loss and the feds gain. If you steal something, but the person does not say anything, is it really theft?

The Liberty Dollar offers a safe place to exchange your FRNs, and get yourself of Uncle Sam's pay roll. Using the Liberty Dollar is a peaceful protest, for sure, but it is a lot of fun to spend these. I am using real money, and it feels good to have honest money in my pocket.

Go for it! The only requirement is that the public accept it, just like any free market currency. Heck, you could even use Disney dollars if you wanted. As long as they could be redeemed for rides at Disney. It comes down to public acceptance. Think about FedEx when it started. A lot of negativity and how could it compete with the Postal Service. Well, it did and because of the competition the Postal Service had to improve its service or lose market share to a private corporation.

If you think the public will accept a $500 face value 1oz silver piece, then do it. Even at $500 face value, it would be better than our FRNs. Atleast there is value in a$500 1oz silver piece and no debt attached to it.

The Great Ag

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Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

The "Liberty Dollar" is nothing more than a common one-ounce generic silver round that has "Twenty Dollars" stamped on it. That somehow makes it "worth" twenty FRNs when less than twelve FRNs can buy any other one-ounce generic silver round?

Pull the other one The Great Ag. Stamping "Two Hundred Dollars" on a common one-ounce silver round don't make it then worth ten times as much. One ounce of silver is worth exactly $10.43 on Kitco today.
:haha: <<< no disrespect intended

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Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Let's keep our eye on the ball here. We are talking about a one-ounce generic silver round which today is only worth $10.44

We are not talking about the Treasury's cost of paper. We are not comparing silver to paper. Keeping it simple:

It is illogical that the "Liberty Dollar" one-ounce generic silver round is worth more than any other because it has "Twenty Dollars" stamped on it.

Stamping "Twenty Dollars" or even "Two Hundred Dollars" on a one-ounce generic silver round adds absolutely no value to what is today worth only $10.44

The title of this thread remains: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
:yippee:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

O.k. the Great AG.

The question for me, boils down to this:

What places of business accept the $20 silver one oz. coin as $20 FRN?

I am asking, where can I go and gather up $20 worth of goods and when it's time to pay, slap down a $20 Liberty dollar and leave?

I'm quite sure my local bullion dealer would laugh at me, but thats not a fair example.

Where do you spend your Liberty dollars?

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

But the neat trick is, you can immediately turn that $20 into silver bullion worth almost $20, minus the premium. What you are asking is for us to turn our $20 FRN into $10.50 worth of silver bullion.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I think Book is stuck in the same rut I was (feeling like I'm slowly understanding)... Would Book be more comfortable if 10$ were stamped on a 1 oz. LD?

I think the point is that if this grand plan (of "real" value currency) is ever to catch on, we hase to have some starting point. 20$ is a good enough place as any to start. And, from what I've read on this site, I'd say 95% of us feel silver is greatly undervalued. So again, what's wrong with "20$"?
Really it is all moot anyway. The point is , is that we currently as a nation spend $ backed by.....nada.

AG's comment about paper money being ill recieved by the masses in the late 1700's is really the exact opposite mirror-image of LD'ers and GIM'ers who want our money to mean something!

As far as spending them, I looked at the LD site of Florida LD-"friendly"
businesses...pretty slim pickins, never heard of any of them.
But, I guess this has to start somewhere. Or ,does it? Most here also seem to believe that if/when SHTF or TEOTWAWKI happens....there will only be PM's and bartering anyway. What's the difference really.

BTW, does Fort Knox even exist anymore, and what's actually in it. Not enough gold to make the new 24K buffalo coins. The Gov't outsourced that gold even.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Yes Fort Knox exists. Whether or not there is an oz. of gold in Fort Knox is unknown. I have read that it has all been sold out from under the citizens of this nation. They keep Fort Knox around as a decoy for other countries that want to nuke us. They will probably go for Fort Knox to vaporize our gold and not hit any other targets of great importance nearby, is our governments hope I'm guessing. The smart thing to do would to save Fort Knox's supposed gold for themselves if they were to take over. The funny thing is, the government has consistently refused any accountability of Fort Knox's gold since the early 1950's.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Quote:

Hey, Book. I disagree, we are comparing currencies, because that is what the Liberty Dollar is. So the only way to analyze the Liberty Dollar is to compare it to other currencies and see how it stacks ups. -The Great Ag.

Ag...we do disagree that the Liberty Dollar is currency. Let's keep it simple here. Stamping "Twenty Dollars" on a one-ounce generic silver round does not magically make it currency. It is still just a one-ounce generic silver round...worth today $10.48

If you can convince people that YOUR one-ounce generic silver round is currency then maybe you can get those people to pay you twenty dollars for YOUR $10.48 one-ounce generic silver round.
:beer:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

The Great Ag

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

A few more questions for the Great AG:

Again, I like the concept of LD's, I'm just trying to understand the dynamics of the system.

Say I am a business owner and I decide to accept LD's.

A customer comes in and gives me $100 worth of LD's. What am I going to do with them? Will I have to spend them at a company that accepts them, much like I did as the business owner? Or can I send them to the Liberty Dollar headquarters for FRN's that I can use to pay my taxes or to other companies that won't accept LD's?

I'm assuming, this has got to be a currency of consensual parties.

But what would happen, if say, a business owner was soon swamped with LD's. Say, he got paid $10,000 worth of LD's. What is he going to do with them? I'm assuming he can't put them in his bank, other than a safety deposit box. Then the next month he gets another $10,000 worth of LD's. Soon, hes up to his eyebrows in LD's, but his suppliers don't accept them. What if he can't find a consensual party that accepts them to the degree that he has accepted them.

Question 2: If I bought LD's from you, would it cost me $20 FRN (or a little less you say) for one $20 LD? I need to look that the Liberty Dollar site again. Last time I looked, I didn't absorb much information.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

"in terms of the Phoenix dollar, it is an alternative currency. The only problem I see with it, is that is more clumsy than the Liberty dollar.

Let me explain. Unless the currency has a defined face value printed on it, it becomes barter"

Click on the pics at the bottom of the page:

https://www.phoenixdollar.net/treasureshop/

The phoenix $ has a face value of $10. Wouldn't want to spend it for face value, but you don't have to pay a high premium for it either.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

from the website;

"Phoenix Silver is a digital currency, 100% backed by .999 fine silver. The stored silver is held in allocated vaults by Northwest Territorial Mint, in the form of 1000 troy ounce Phoenix Silver Bullion Bars."

I'm sure the stored silver is safe and sound.:wink:

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

AG, let's say in the future we, as a nation, do make the switch to LD's.

What happens to the bullion market? What happens to all that silver that has not been converted to LD's?

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

"I'm sure the stored silver is safe and sound."

I don't have any personal experience with the phoenix dollars, but from the site it looks like there are a few different options. Generic phoenix bars, "phoenix dollar" rounds, and digital accounts.

"One Ounce Phoenix Silver Disks Shipped to you"

I would be interested in a couple rounds since being marked $10 face value makes them kinda unusual for rounds, but I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with this company.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Quote:" would need to know your zip for shipping costs, but I am thinking $38 for 1 $20 silver Liberty and 2 $10 Silver Liberties. So that's $40 of silver Liberties for $38 and that includes shipping. Let me know your zip code. If you are in the US then $38 will cover it. "

Would that be 1 oz. + 2 half ounces?

Quote:"Sign up to be a Liberty Associate, and I will split the $100 referral 50/50 with you."

What is required to sign up as a liberty accociate?



Quote: "The pics I saw did not show $10 denomination. Can you provide the link."


Ooops. Guess i messed up the link. I'll try again. Click on the small pics on the bottom of the page to get a close up:

https://www.phoenixdollar.net/treasureshop.php

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

[quote=Wyldwil;281291]AG, let's say in the future we, as a nation, do make the switch to LD's.

What happens to the bullion market? What happens to all that silver that has not been converted to LD's? You ask good questions Wyldwil. The short answer is nothing happens. If America did go on a silver or gold standard the bullion market would still sell bullion around the world. The LD would be worth slightly more than the spot price of silver and gold, as the currency is silver and gold. What would change is other currencies to the LD. Whatever that country's sport price for gold and silver would be about the exchange rate for that currency and the LD.

For example let's hypothetically say the US went onto the gold and silver standard. Silver is $10.30 FRNS an ounce (6/24/06). The gov't would have to debate what 1 ounce of silver is worth for face value. Let's just say they arbitrarily chose $1, just like our old silver coins. Here is the tricky part, Wyldwil, you have to forget pricing in FRNs and think in LD. So 1oz bullion silver is may cost .50 cents. The raw materials have to cost less than the face value or People will not spend it. Basically we are turning everything upside down. We have just made our national money system equivalent to gold and silver.

For other currencies say the British Pound, here is how it works. Currently $1 FRN = .54 Pounds, and 1 oz of silver = 5.66 pounds. Lets do some math to convert Pounds in LD. Remember we have just converted America to the silver standard where 1 oz silver equals 1 Liberty Dollar. Take 1/5.66 and you get an approximate exchange rate of .18 pounds equals 1 LD.

Does that make sense?[/quote]


The Great Ag

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

OK, so I was bored today reading through the archives and came across this thread. Since it's almost exactly a year since this was being discussed, I have to ask you Ag, have you found more stores accepting them by now? Are you still a Liberty Dollar Associate?

I do think it's an interesting idea, but until it's more widely accepted, I feel like at the end someone may get left holding the bag, i.e. something they paid $20 for and can now only be exchanged for spot price ($13.08 right now). It's like musical chairs with bullion - it's worth $20 so long as you can find someone to give you $20 for it.

Yes, the dollar is inherently worthless, but I can find millions of places that accept them, including the gov't, who always promises to accept them for payment of my taxes. So I'll never be left "holding the bag" and only getting 3 cents for my $20 bill. So I'm not paying $20 for something worth 3 cents, I'm paying $20 for something that will get me $20 worth of stuff from anyplace I want to get stuff from (or will pay $20 worth of my taxes).

I don't have that same security with the LD ... I'd like to see it become more widespread, but I don't want to be the guinea pig!

PS: This also seems to relate to the well thought-out silver Libertad as currency idea posted here:

http://www.plata.com.mx/plata/plata/comHSP45a.htm

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I've been a Liberty Associate for a couple of years now. I don't buy and spend a ton of them or anything, but every now and again I use them to buy stuff. More people accept them than turn them down. Most people that turn them down do so because their bank won't take them. Most people are really excited about them; they're heavy and shiny! People get it when you tell them it's 1 oz. of silver, they understand the value of that. My favorite place to spend them is our Saturday outdoor market here in town; the vendors love to accept them, and usually keep them. I consider my Liberty dollars to be spending money, and my bullion to be hoard/hedge/investment.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Anyone have a court case update for Liberty Dollars? how are they doing? I keep hearing reports of arrests and such.

The old posts about the $10 face value of Phoenix Dollars are not correct. If you look closer the silver is a weight based currency in troy ounces.

The main difference between liberty dollars and phoenix dollars is that liberty dollars have the dollar denomination and phoenix dollars have a weight denomination and sell for spot + .50-.75/ounce.

I own both liberty dollars and phoenix dollars, but I just save them and don't spend them.

I think it makes little sense to spend silver while FRNs are decreasing in value.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

You will get no argument from me that the Mexican Libertads are gorgeous and valuable coins! I wouldn't trade them for mere food!

One thing that bothers me about the Liberty Dollar: the base jumps from $10 to $20 to $50 because "those are standard denominations of U.S. currency." But why do this, if the intent isn't to fool someone into thinking it's a legal tender coin??

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Yeah, I'm pretty suspicious of this as well, but agree that it might be worth supporting nonetheless. My thought is that if it did gain enough traction, other similar enterprises would spring up, and the competition would force down the markup. Of course, if it gained that much traction, then perhaps I would be able to use generic bullion in the same manner.

I'm not about to put any of my resources into this, and it is a shame that it looks so much like a pyramid scheme, but maybe it is better than nothing.

What if instead you could get enough people in a local region or town to simply accept silver in trade? Or does that miss the point?

Dymaxion

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Silver is a great way to exchange goods and services! It was a Baja Mexico restaurant. Like I said, small business are more open to alternative forms of money, than corporations. 1 oz Libs got me $20 worth of food! Who made out better in the short term, him or me? It cost me $13 for the Lib! I informed him the upside to silver, and he loved the coin.

With reference to $50 base, yeah, I agree it's high. The reasoning for it was the $10, $20 and $50 bases are easily recognized by Americans everywhere. The idea was not to commit fraud, but to use a denomination familiar to Americans. I think it would have been easier to bump to a $30 base, even though it's a strange denomination.

The Great Ag

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

It would work if you could get enough people to accept it, although it would admittedly be more difficult to conduct transactions based on a fluctuating spot price rather than a nice round number stamped on the coin that stays constant.

The best idea I've seen is the idea for Mexican Libertads to be used in circulation that I linked to above. The price is based on a once-daily closing price, and is fixed by the bank to never go down, only up.

And I think what bothers us about the Liberty Dollar idea is that a private individual is making money off us on the seignorage, which is significant (not like 10% or whatever, more like 100% or even more sometimes). Not that I'm a HUGE fan of gov't, but if they went back to using gold and silver coins, I would allow them their seignorage so they wouldn't have to tax us QUITE so much, and maybe SOME of the money would go to good purposes (infrastructure, etc.).

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

No, you made out OK ... of course I would trade even a pretty Libertad for ENOUGH food... :coolbeer:

PS: Where do you get Libertads for $13 each? Or was it a while ago?

"Easily recognized"? Easily recognized as what, a standard amount for U.S. legal tender currency? I mean, $30 is an "easily-recognized," nice round number that would work just as well for commerce as $50. But people will probably know that a $30 coin is not legal tender, since the U.S. has never made a bill or coin in that denomination ever (as far as I know). Like I believe you yourself said, people would look twice at a $30 coin and know it was something other than legal tender, while some people will take a $20 coin and assume it is. In fact, if Von NotHaus wanted to be totally forthright, he would INTENTIONALLY make it $15 or $25 or $30 just to PROVE that he's not trying to fool people - I bet the gov't might be a bit more inclined to get off his case, too ... and it would go a long way in any court cases that come up (against him or users of the LD). "Your honor, we've made every effort to make sure it is NOT confused with legal tender - look at the denominations...."

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

Baja Mexico, as in the place? Or is that the name of the restaurant, in the U.S.? That's pretty cool if you bought goods with a Mex Lib at a U.S. restaurant.

Re: Simple Reality Test for GIMers
 

I guess I should have said "psychologically recognized" denominations. It's odd enough that someone would "pay" for goods and services with silver, why compound the difference with an odd denominational amount? That would be my answer.

I understand the difficulty with the seignorage, but as I have posted earlier, the gov'ts seignorage is even worse! $.04 for a dollar bill, $.09 for a quarter. . .etc. I don't see many people complaining about this. If the LD bothers people then it should with the gov't too! Maybe they don't think about the seignorage with US coins? I'd rather pay extra for silver than for clad sandwiches or paper.


No, local here in Delaware. The owner is from Baja, and I have used silver before, but his eyes lit up when I showed him the Libertad.

The Great Ag